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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:40 am 
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Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
Sciatico wrote:
You don't seem to have twigged that a EU law provides a MINMUM baseline countries should not cross. there is nothing to say any country cannot do better. ( For example a minimum of 4 weeks paid holiday per year).


But what happens if your country doesn't want 4 weeks paid holiday per year? :?

Plenty of voluntary work they can do in their holidays.

Sciatico wrote:
"Finland tops global school table" (2004)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/educ ... 073753.stm


Funny it doesn't say "EU schools all top global school table". Surely all this harmonisation and common purpose must lead to everyone going in the same direction?


That's the idea, gradually.

Hard to find intelligible general world education rankings, lots on university rankings which don't reflect the overall educational state of a country.


Here are some insights into the Finnish education system instead, pretty much the opposite of what GB is doing:
http://tinyurl.com/62e8t9

1. The Finnish school system uses the same curriculum for all students (which may be one reason why Finnish scores varied so little from school to school).

2. Students have light homework loads.

3. Finnish schools do not have classes for gifted students.

4. Finland uses very little standardized testing.

5. Children do not start school until age 7.

6. Finland has a comprehensive preschool program that emphasizes “self-reflection” and socializing, not academics.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:43 am 
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Sciatico wrote:

That's the idea, gradually.


Remind me again, how old is the EU?

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magog wrote:
How have the advertisers of this blend of dried dogshit and tramtickets got away with not only calling it coffee but claiming it's just as good?

Floyd wrote:
Whenever I get a stack of CVs I immediately throw half of them away.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:01 am 
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oldrwb wrote:
I have read your postings and you have singularly failed to prove any benefit for the UK from being a member of the EU. Claiming that I am not intelligent enough to understand your postings is not acceptable, so unless you can engage the debate with facts and deduction I suggest you but out and declare yourself an official EU-Loon.
Anyone who prefers an unelected QUANGO to democratic Parliament is clearly ignorant of history!


You better learn how it ACTUALLY works instead of making emotive generalisations from ignorance:

THE EU AT A GLANCE:
http://europa.eu/abc/12lessons/index_en.htm

The legislative process:
http://europa.eu/abc/12lessons/lesson_4/index_en.htm


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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:25 am 
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oldrwb wrote:
The latest such study comes from CIVITAS (Institute for the Study of Civil Society) in the form of a masterly booklet entitled ’A Cost Too Far’. It is an authoritative work that has been put together with meticulous care and in which the author, Ian Milne, has maintained a bias in his research toward under-statement in interpreting data. His conclusions make for shocking reading. He puts the annual cost of UK membership of the EU on present terms at no less than 4 per cent of GDP, a colossal £40 billion.

This is a 2004 report, since then the costs have escalated as ZaNuLab have given Mrs T's rebate away.


Never heard of Civitas. It's a private organisation set up by a Mr Green:
http://www.civitas.org.uk/books/about.php#personnel

Ian Milne is the director of a tiny private anti-EU pressure group called "Global Britain" and "chairman of companies involved in publishing and book distribution":
http://www.globalbritain.org/aboutus.asp

His "authority" is underwhelming.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:29 am 
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Remind me again of the EU budget?

140 BILLION EUROS per year

That's £2307 for every single citizen in Europe.

There are eight people in my family. Remind me again what my family is getting from Europe (that it wouldn't already get from the UK) for the bargain knock down price of £18,461 per year?

A new BMW every year?

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the difference between a welfare state and a totalitarian state is a matter of time.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:41 am 
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http://www.global-vision.net/negotiatingapproach.asp#

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the difference between a welfare state and a totalitarian state is a matter of time.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:48 am 
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Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
Sciatico wrote:

That's the idea, gradually.


Remind me again, how old is the EU?


It started evolving gradually from the European coal and steel community in 1951:
http://europa.eu/abc/12lessons/lesson_2/index_en.htm

Peacefully getting 27 diverse countries who have been fighting each other for millennia to all begin pulling in the same direction inside 50 years is a major feat.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:49 am 
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I am afraid that our resident EU Loon dismisses every point he does not like to weigh and offers pap in return, such has been the strength of the pro-EU lobby over the years. Just answer the question directly; why would anyone prefer to be ruled by an unelected QUANGO rather than by a democratically elected Gov.?

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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:41 am 
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Old Holborn wrote:
Remind me again of the EU budget?

140 BILLION EUROS per year

That's £2307 for every single citizen in Europe.

There are eight people in my family. Remind me again what my family is getting from Europe (that it wouldn't already get from the UK) for the bargain knock down price of £18,461 per year?

A new BMW every year?


You can buy BMWs cheaper, saving you at least that amount. Same goes for a vast range of superior goods and foods.

You can also sell stuff easier there.
(Would be as easy as selling inside Britain, if you had the Euro.)

You don't have to ever worry about Germany, France or Spain attacking you again.
If you'd sided with the EU instead of the yanks there would be much less of a chance of disgruntled Muslims taking a feeble swipe back either, (though Mossad in Burkhas probably would). So you've more than blown that peace dividend.

Aside from the fact you can now pack your bag and move to better EU climes tomorrow,


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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:01 pm 
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oldrwb wrote:
I am afraid that our resident EU Loon dismisses every point he does not like to weigh and offers pap in return, such has been the strength of the pro-EU lobby over the years. Just answer the question directly; why would anyone prefer to be ruled by an unelected QUANGO rather than by a democratically elected Gov.?



It's not an unelected Quango:
Read this again until you understand it:
http://europa.eu/abc/12lessons/lesson_4/index_en.htm

The European council is of elected ministers from each country (which you elected). It represents the elected governments of each country.

The European Parliament is of ministers you personally elect to represent you in the EU (MEPs).

The European Commission whose members are appointed for a five-year term by agreement between the elected governments of member states, subject to approval by the European Parliament. IE it is vetted by the ministers you elect, and in rotation, presided over by the prime minister of each country including GB (not the EU's fault you didn't elect your own bloody Prime Minister, Brown !).


Last edited by Sciatico on Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:08 pm 
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I think you will find that the US led NATO kept the peace in Europe and as the current EU countries could not raise and army that could fight a battle then I am not concerned that they will attack us.

If the real cost of being an EU member is £40b then that is around 40x10^9/20^6=2x10^3 or £2,000 per household or 8% of average wage. If this amount produced £1,500.00 of net disposable income, then there would be a lot of happy UK campers, campers that would not purchase a BMW in Germany every year.

Arguing that we should adopt the Euro without telling us what the exchange rate would be is really like buying a pig in a poke. At current rates the rest of the EU would not be happy campers and do you really think France and Germany would allow Britain an advantage?

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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:26 pm 
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Sciatico wrote:
You can buy BMWs cheaper, saving you at least that amount.


Of course you can.

BMW M3, totally standard, no extras. UK price before tax: £43260. US Price: $58625, or £29626 of your British Pounds.

And they have to ship it all the way to the USA as well. I'm well pleased with all the money I'm saving.

_________________
magog wrote:
How have the advertisers of this blend of dried dogshit and tramtickets got away with not only calling it coffee but claiming it's just as good?

Floyd wrote:
Whenever I get a stack of CVs I immediately throw half of them away.

This weeds out unlucky people.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:07 pm 
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oldrwb wrote:
I think you will find that the US led NATO kept the peace in Europe and as the current EU countries could not raise and army that could fight a battle then I am not concerned that they will attack us.

If the real cost of being an EU member is £40b then that is around 40x10^9/20^6=2x10^3 or £2,000 per household or 8% of average wage. If this amount produced £1,500.00 of net disposable income, then there would be a lot of happy UK campers, campers that would not purchase a BMW in Germany every year.

Arguing that we should adopt the Euro without telling us what the exchange rate would be is really like buying a pig in a poke. At current rates the rest of the EU would not be happy campers and do you really think France and Germany would allow Britain an advantage?


Don't know, it's very complex.
It depend on how much confidence there is in the stability of the £ compared to the stability of the Euro.
If GB tries to bail itself out of a faltering £ by adopting the Euro, it wouldn't get as good a deal as it would adopting it when there is more confidence in the £ (Of course uninformed brits are even less likely to want to adopt the then Euro ).

The Euro is now a very resilient currency (probably the most resiliant in the world).

So IMO GB should adopt the Euro when (if ever again ) the £ looks stable.
That means during a period when it's not strutting around behind the ZIoYanks bashing a billion Muslims for Israel and a handful of oil greedsters (western control of oil doesn't mean cheaper oil for you and me, btw).

IMO GB and the £ would also be in a much better position if it reduces it's reliance on foreign energy. No need to go crusading, cowering or paying through the nose for it then.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:11 pm 
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Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
Sciatico wrote:
You can buy BMWs cheaper, saving you at least that amount.


Of course you can.

BMW M3, totally standard, no extras. UK price before tax: £43260. US Price: $58625, or £29626 of your British Pounds.

And they have to ship it all the way to the USA as well. I'm well pleased with all the money I'm saving.


Bwahaha, the brit ones are RH drive, not standard. Another extra they have to pay for. They'd be even more expensive with import duty.


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 Post subject: Re: EU Expenses
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:22 pm 
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As far as I can see, your arguments are:

It is worth paying €140 BILLION a year, so we won't have any wars in Europe

It is worth paying €140 BILLION a year, so we can live anywhere in Europe we feel like

It is worth paying €140 BILLION a year, so we get to pay what the French pay for a BMW (except we don't, hence grey imports)

It is worth paying €140 BILLION a year, just to wave sticks at the Yanks, whilst the EU did NOTHING in the Balkans whilst they were slaughtering each IN EUROPE.

Have I misseed anything?

No wonder the Swiss and the Norwegians want nothing to do with it.

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the difference between a welfare state and a totalitarian state is a matter of time.


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