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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:47 pm 
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Quote:
The European Commission says nations should continue to ratify the treaty
The British government says the Bill to ratify the treaty will continue
Quote:
Irish PM Brian Cowen : "Ireland has no wish to halt the progress" of the EU"
"Ireland remains committed to a strong Europe,"
"Ratifications should continue to take their course."
Quote:
Foreign Secretary David Miliband says the UK must ratify the EU Treaty despite its rejection by Irish voters.

As expected, they will simply ignore this vote and carry on.

Quote:
Bastard Labour MP Denis MacShane : "I personally think that a vote in a foreign country should not determine the democratic decisions taken in the British Parliament."

Oh, the irony.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:55 pm 
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FarkingZarquads! wrote:
Sciatico wrote:
.......Just one of these reasons is that there isn't time to wait another few decades for you to grasp the concept that 27 countries pulling in the same direction is better than each one weaving about on it's own. [/b]




mwaaaahaaahaa

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

you actually believe that don't you.

Yup. in the same way that you agree all counties in Britain are on the whole better off under the same UK law.

(falls off seat and clutches ribs)


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Give us one clear example of where all 27 countries have 'pulled together' in one direction to the detriment of at least one if not many (usually us).

Your question is garbled but here is one: Harmonised "CE" (EN) standards

Then further clarify that by showing us how this compares with how the loosing country(s) would not have been better off serving it's own interests first and keeping it's money in its own pocket in comparison (that'll be us again)

I'm not aware of any country which is not benefiting from this process.


'...and paying lip service to' and 'adopting the spirit rather than the letter of..' statements don't qualify.

As commendable as the concept of 'group buying power' may be (and this after all is the only notion of merit within the whole sorry disaster)

No it's not. There are numerous other advantages.

it doesn't work when some of the club pay more than others to join and (run), some of the group don't stick to the ground rules of the negotiations, some of the group clearly pursue their own interests in side deals, some of the group are expected to make disproportionate concessions for 'the greater good' and virtually all of the group don't even agree what the rules mean or how they work.

Sure. All the more reason they should be made to adhere to the club membership rules. Effall good it's done GB to opt out of the Schengen agreement, btw. It's stopped most EU companies having their HQs in Britain.

Bilateral agreements are the way forward for Britain as the good majority of countries that pass for part of europe (and lets face it a swarthy Turk is not a european) are just dead weight at best and an absolute f@cking liablity at worst.

Firstly, they are not the majority of EU countries. Secondly, they provide other things apart from money (like agricultural land, cheap labour and pipeline routes). And thirdly, Turkey are not in the EU.


As for the subtexts of cultural intergration, centralised power and deconstruction of the nation state - no one wants it (unless you are a poor tinpot sh1thole), no one believes it (not even the tinpot sh1thole nations) and given the chance to remove it , any western european nation kicks it into touch.

You'll find that the problems with cultural integration are mostly from certain people GB allows in from non-EU countries.
Any problems there might be from EU nationals pale into significants compared to what brits cause abroad.

Have you ever been to any of the new EU countries you disparagingly call "tinpot sh1tholes"? Loads of brits are starting to exercise their right to have holiday homes and retire there:
http://tinyurl.com/56j9jq


Take your little club of social democratic 'friends' and feck off!

You forgot the tory and labour voters. Alternatively you could wisen up, adapt, and go take advantage of what the EU has to offer yourself instead of trying to prevent others from doing so.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:08 pm 
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GixxerBlueNose wrote:
Quote:
Sciatico wrote:

Just one of these reasons is that there isn't time to wait another few decades for you to grasp the concept that 27 countries pulling in the same direction is better than each one weaving about on it's own.



None are.
It's every man for himself and it always will be. The lesser countries will alway plead, with big puppy eyes, how they want to contribute and just need £xxx billions to get their infrastructure right. The bigger and historically better countries throw this money at them due to a misguided sense of fair play. Once they get what they want, they will do exactly the same as the Irish.

And I wouldn't blame them.

The descendants of the bog trotters that actually managed to survive their self-induced famine have actually done what is best for them. Charity begins at home. Fiscal idiocy begins in Brussels.


It just so happens that the elected governments of all EU countries actually think they should be and are pulling in the same direction. It's only the ignorant sections of the public who are too dumb to see the advantages in front of their eyes, no thanks to a media largely serving a distant foreign minority interest.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:13 pm 
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magog wrote:
Wahtever you think the shortcomings of our parliament are ,they seem like a real working democracy besides Brussels.
Some great looking totty though.


What were you doing there?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:39 pm 
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From Elsewhere (hat tip to Mark Mardell)

Quote:
EU Leaders will react differently tonight to the news from Ireland.

President Sarkozy will enjoy a meal cooked by a 3 star michelin chef, accompanied by the finest burgundy, before going to bed with his wife, a former supermodel.

Gordon Brown will, on the other hand, munch on his fingernails and a bogey picked earlier, before throwing a mobile phone at a wall and then shitting in his nappy whilst ringing up Ed Milliband at 2am.


I am off out tonight to drink ten pints of guinness, dance an Irish jig and hug a pig eyed Mickess down at the Rosy Diddicoy.

In the morning, after a shite the consistency of Marmite, I shall eat a FULL English breakfast, with English tea (three sugars and a Marlboro Red) and reflect on what a effing terrific week this has been for Gordon , Brown


Quote:
I have just been listening to Jose Manuel Barroso and have got to restrain myself from banging my head on the table !

He is waffling on about 'considering what to do ', 'the treaty is not dead' and that Ireland is only one country out of 27.

Yet 100% of the countries offered a referendum have said NO.

There are no countries offered a referendum which have said 'Yes'.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:00 am 
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The 82% of the British electorate are not wrong in wanting to reject this unreadable Constitution, however, be warned the little Dictators will ignore the wishes of the people on the basis that they know best. Milliband said so and so did that Barroso, so there you have it. Somehow we need to extract our individual sovereignty from the claws of these people before they turn us into EU-Serfs. Suddenly Russia is becoming a more attractive place to emigrate.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:07 am 
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Milliband was due to go up against Hague on R4 this morning but ran away and hid.

The BASTARD.

All the Newspeak drone in his place could say was

"Let us see what the way forward is"

John Humphries: "There IS no way forward. The law says 27 countries must ratify and only 26 can. Therefore it must be thrown out"

"Let us see what the way forward is"

Jon Humphries: "Listen, you thick carrot. It is 'to quote John Clease' DEAD"

"Let us see what the way forward is"

If I had been Humphries, I would have disembowled him with a letter opener, live on Radio 4, the arrogant shite.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:31 am 
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It's only the ignorant sections of the public who are too dumb to see the advantages in front of their eyes, no thanks to a media largely serving a distant foreign minority interest.


Nice brassy bold statement without identifying exactly the advantages are.

First recognise that in the future we want jobs and prosperity and this is the next important issue after defense. To obtain such prosperity we need to protect and nurture British areas of excellence such as it's Financial and Commercial dominance in global markets in the face of a clear threat from France and Germany that increasingly seek to take a slice of that business. You can be absolutely certain that Brussels will hinder and not support London's prime position via the political machinations of France and Germany. Secondly recognise that Europe is far too small a pond for Britain to play in and it is very unlikely to be a significant source of our future wealth. Britain needs to protect and advance it's position as No.2 in the global market with it's assets abroad outside of the EU being greater than that owned by the rest of the EU.
Further if we really want jobs and wealth in the future we need once again to become an inventive nation, however, that requires our education system to become competitive again and reward students on merit, unfortunately ZaNuLab have no stomach for this and prefer client state drones.
Understand that the EU is losing it's share of the global market and only those that have sector dominance make healthy profits, usually also-rans have to invest to catch up with market leaders.
So the way forward for Britain is outside of the EU where it will be able, if the dead hand of the State is removed, to protect and further it's world class sectors.
The EU has a natural tendency towards protection and will become Fortress Europe in which the UK will be reduced to that of a bit-player.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:26 am 
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oldrwb wrote:
Quote:
It's only the ignorant sections of the public who are too dumb to see the advantages in front of their eyes, no thanks to a media largely serving a distant foreign minority interest.


Nice brassy bold statement without identifying exactly the advantages are.

Just how many times do I have to repeat them? Harmonised laws and standards accross 27 countries, immensely facilitating business, trade, retirement, rights etc.


First recognise that in the future we want jobs and prosperity and this is the next important issue after defense. To obtain such prosperity we need to protect and nurture British areas of excellence such as it's Financial and Commercial dominance in global markets in the face of a clear threat from France and Germany that increasingly seek to take a slice of that business.

Why should anyone want the £? The Euro is the alternative to the faltering $ and £.

You can be absolutely certain that Brussels will hinder and not support London's prime position via the political machinations of France and Germany.

Of course it's not up to Europe's to support the £, swiss CH, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and Icelandic Kronas etc. It's not the Euro's fault the world prefers it, and to deal with Europe rather than America/Israel's poodle.

Secondly recognise that Europe is far too small a pond for Britain to play in and it is very unlikely to be a significant source of our future wealth.

What are you on about. It's GB's second largest export market and the world's biggest economy.


Britain needs to protect and advance it's position as No.2 in the global market with it's assets abroad outside of the EU being greater than that owned by the rest of the EU.

I'd be interested in reading your source for this.

Further if we really want jobs and wealth in the future we need once again to become an inventive nation, however, that requires our education system to become competitive again and reward students on merit, unfortunately ZaNuLab have no stomach for this and prefer client state drones.

No. It's actually GB firm's managements that are the biggest obstacle to British inventiveness. No Brit inventor in their right mind will try to get a Brit firm to make and sell his product (Precisely why I decided to make mine myself).

Understand that the EU is losing it's share of the global market

A vague and selective statement. The whole west is generally losing it's share of the global market and most of the rest of the world are gaining it. Here are some European export growth figures:
http://tinyurl.com/5rlc7c

and only those that have sector dominance make healthy profits, usually also-rans have to invest to catch up with market leaders.

Lets have a look at the US's trade deficits (bottom of table means biggest US deficit, which is China). The US has far bigger trade deficits with Germany, Ireland, Italy, France and Sweden than the UK:
http://tinyurl.com/2upc4t


So the way forward for Britain is outside of the EU where it will be able, if the dead hand of the State is removed, to protect and further it's world class sectors.

It can do that from inside the EU, like it has been for decades (as have the other EU countries with foreign assets).


The EU has a natural tendency towards protection and will become Fortress Europe in which the UK will be reduced to that of a bit-player.

Brits can reduce the UK to a bit-player just fine without the EU , thank you very much.



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:13 pm 
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Just how many times do I have to repeat them? Harmonised laws and standards accross 27 countries, immensely facilitating business, trade, retirement, rights etc.

Which EU laws have been a benefit to Britain and in what way are they superior to those that they replaced?

Common standards were part of the EEC.


First recognise that in the future we want jobs and prosperity and this is the next important issue after defense. To obtain such prosperity we need to protect and nurture British areas of excellence such as it's Financial and Commercial dominance in global markets in the face of a clear threat from France and Germany that increasingly seek to take a slice of that business.

Why should anyone want the £? The Euro is the alternative to the faltering $ and £.

Why should anyone want the Euro which has no lender of last resort?

Why were you not crowing a few years ago when the Euro was on a slide?

What will you say the next time the Euro is on a slide against the £/$US? Don't be silly a believe it will not happen.


You can be absolutely certain that Brussels will hinder and not support London's prime position via the political machinations of France and Germany.

Of course it's not up to Europe's to support the £, swiss CH, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and Icelandic Kronas etc. It's not the Euro's fault the world prefers it, and to deal with Europe rather than America/Israel's poodle.

I was not talking about currency, but the dominant position of LSE, LIFFE and Investment Houses, etc, commonly referred to as "the City". I think the LSE turns over more on a Monday before lunch than the rest of the EU bourses do in a week. Our Futures business is greater than that of NY and Tokyo together.

Secondly recognise that Europe is far too small a pond for Britain to play in and it is very unlikely to be a significant source of our future wealth.

What are you on about. It's GB's second largest export market and the world's biggest economy.

Britain is in permanent net deficit with the EU and makes it's money in the ROW.
Anyway this is an EEC matter not EU.


Britain needs to protect and advance it's position as No.2 in the global market with it's assets abroad outside of the EU being greater than that owned by the rest of the EU.

I'd be interested in reading your source for this.

Further if we really want jobs and wealth in the future we need once again to become an inventive nation, however, that requires our education system to become competitive again and reward students on merit, unfortunately ZaNuLab have no stomach for this and prefer client state drones.

No. It's actually GB firm's managements that are the biggest obstacle to British inventiveness. No Brit inventor in their right mind will try to get a Brit firm to make and sell his product (Precisely why I decided to make mine myself).

Understand that the EU is losing it's share of the global market

A vague and selective statement. The whole west is generally losing it's share of the global market and most of the rest of the world are gaining it. Here are some European export growth figures:
http://tinyurl.com/5rlc7c

Not vague at all, it is well understood by economists and it is the USA, India and China that are making the largest gains.

and only those that have sector dominance make healthy profits, usually also-rans have to invest to catch up with market leaders.

The phrase was "sector dominance", once again you miss the point.

Lets have a look at the US's trade deficits (bottom of table means biggest US deficit, which is China). The US has far bigger trade deficits with Germany, Ireland, Italy, France and Sweden than the UK:
http://tinyurl.com/2upc4t


So the way forward for Britain is outside of the EU where it will be able, if the dead hand of the State is removed, to protect and further it's world class sectors.

It can do that from inside the EU, like it has been for decades (as have the other EU countries with foreign assets).

No you cannot EU red tape has been calculated to cost us around £30b PA.

The EU has a natural tendency towards protection and will become Fortress Europe in which the UK will be reduced to that of a bit-player.

Brits can reduce the UK to a bit-player just fine without the EU , thank you very much.

Funny that the UK on a per capita basis is richer than Germany and France and Italy and Spain, etc. Britain is not bit-player in the Financial Services market although Gordon Brown and the EU put hurdles up all the time.

You seem to confuse the benefits of being in a trading association such as the EEC and claim these to justify the undemocratic political EU of today. There is a democratic deficit between the EU aparatchiks and the electors as nobody sees the justification for a United States of Europe governed by an unelected QUANGO.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:25 pm 
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It' almost beyond belief how the EU Kremlin reacts to a "no" vote. They can't comprehend that some people want to stop them doing what they want. What people ? oh those Irish ,doesnt matter we're doing it anyway ,just watch.
The talk this morning was about the Irish Government having "to come up wuth a plan so that we can go forward with the treaty" , not "oh well they were the rules ,we must respect the result" Never f*cking well happens., same old same old.
It's the Irish Govt's fault ,not the Irish people ,because the concept of "the people" has long been erased from their minds.
As we sit here ,some of us rejoicing that the Irish have scuppered the treaty, the implementation of it is going ahead regardless in Brussels ,because they will not be defeated.
That awful retard ,the creature Brown ,having broken the Nulabiua promise about us having a say, is toadying up to Brussels and vowing to help get the poor Irish back on track.
We must get out of this hideous dictatorship because it will not only remove all traces of national power and characteristics in time ,it will make Nulabia taxes look gentle.
Mandleson and Brown ,the Lifters ,shirt and tax.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:38 pm 
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oldrwb wrote:
Just how many times do I have to repeat them? Harmonised laws and standards accross 27 countries, immensely facilitating business, trade, retirement, rights etc.

Which EU laws have been a benefit to Britain and in what way are they superior to those that they replaced?

Common standards were part of the EEC.


Which is now the EU/EEA and the standards not only remain but numerous national standards are being gradually replaced by Europe-wide ones, which benefits everyone.

First recognise that in the future we want jobs and prosperity and this is the next important issue after defense. To obtain such prosperity we need to protect and nurture British areas of excellence such as it's Financial and Commercial dominance in global markets in the face of a clear threat from France and Germany that increasingly seek to take a slice of that business.

Why should anyone want the £? The Euro is the alternative to the faltering $ and £.

Why should anyone want the Euro which has no lender of last resort?


Because it's the currency of 20 countries, not one country whose govt can change drastically at any time, like the US and GB have amply demonstrated. Which is why over 26% and climbing of world reserves are now held in Euros. Nobody gives a sh1t about "lenders of last resort".


Why were you not crowing a few years ago when the Euro was on a slide?

You have no idea what I was saying years ago.

What will you say the next time the Euro is on a slide against the £/$US? Don't be silly a believe it will not happen.[/color]

It's much more likely the $ will on average keep sliding against the Euro. GB has the option of adopting the Euro if/when the £ goes down the drain, the US only has the Amero, if it ever gets off the round. Even Mercosur (S.American "EU")are expanding and contemplating a regional South American currency. Everybody wants to dump the $ and have their own trade Block and currency.

You can be absolutely certain that Brussels will hinder and not support London's prime position via the political machinations of France and Germany.

Of course it's not up to Europe's to support the £, swiss CH, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and Icelandic Kronas etc. It's not the Euro's fault the world prefers it, and to deal with Europe rather than America/Israel's poodle.

I was not talking about currency, but the dominant position of LSE, LIFFE and Investment Houses, etc, commonly referred to as "the City". I think the LSE turns over more on a Monday before lunch than the rest of the EU bourses do in a week. Our Futures business is greater than that of NY and Tokyo together.

You seem to think these are still solely british affairs. LIFFE was bought by Euronext which merged with NYSE
The LSE is a plc owned by shareholders from around the globe and merged with the Italian Bourse last year.
"The city" is owned and used by all manner of foreigners, it just happens to be in London.


Secondly recognise that Europe is far too small a pond for Britain to play in and it is very unlikely to be a significant source of our future wealth.

What are you on about. It's GB's second largest export market and the world's biggest economy.

Britain is in permanent net deficit with the EU and makes it's money in the ROW.
Anyway this is an EEC matter not EU.


The EEC is no more. It's now the EEA/EU.


Britain needs to protect and advance it's position as No.2 in the global market with it's assets abroad outside of the EU being greater than that owned by the rest of the EU.

I'd be interested in reading your source for this.

Further if we really want jobs and wealth in the future we need once again to become an inventive nation, however, that requires our education system to become competitive again and reward students on merit, unfortunately ZaNuLab have no stomach for this and prefer client state drones.

No. It's actually GB firm's managements that are the biggest obstacle to British inventiveness. No Brit inventor in their right mind will try to get a Brit firm to make and sell his product (Precisely why I decided to make mine myself).

Understand that the EU is losing it's share of the global market

A vague and selective statement. The whole west is generally losing it's share of the global market and most of the rest of the world are gaining it. Here are some European export growth figures:
http://tinyurl.com/5rlc7c

Not vague at all, it is well understood by economists and it is the USA, India and China that are making the largest gains.

Your source?

and only those that have sector dominance make healthy profits, usually also-rans have to invest to catch up with market leaders.

The phrase was "sector dominance", once again you miss the point.

"Sector dominance" is irrelevant if you are losing in the other sectors. It's overall trade figures which are the bottom line, internationally.


Lets have a look at the US's trade deficits (bottom of table means biggest US deficit, which is China). The US has far bigger trade deficits with Germany, Ireland, Italy, France and Sweden than the UK:
http://tinyurl.com/2upc4t


So the way forward for Britain is outside of the EU where it will be able, if the dead hand of the State is removed, to protect and further it's world class sectors.

It can do that from inside the EU, like it has been for decades (as have the other EU countries with foreign assets).

No you cannot EU red tape has been calculated to cost us around £30b PA.

Your source?

The EU has a natural tendency towards protection and will become Fortress Europe in which the UK will be reduced to that of a bit-player.

Brits can reduce the UK to a bit-player just fine without the EU , thank you very much.

Funny that the UK on a per capita basis is richer than Germany and France and Italy and Spain, etc.

Irrelevant. It's the quality of living (and happiness) of the people that count, not how many millionaires have stashes.

Britain is not bit-player in the Financial Services market although Gordon Brown and the EU put hurdles up all the time.

You seem to confuse the benefits of being in a trading association such as the EEC and claim these to justify the undemocratic political EU of today. There is a democratic deficit between the EU aparatchiks and the electors as nobody sees the justification for a United States of Europe governed by an unelected QUANGO.[/color]

It's not a Quango, FFS. And it's only smallminded insulars who can't see the benefits of the new extras when their face is shoved in them. Fortunately I can and am already taking advantage of them, as are some other GOM here.



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:19 pm 
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Sciatico wrote:
magog wrote:
Wahtever you think the shortcomings of our parliament are ,they seem like a real working democracy besides Brussels.
Some great looking totty though.


What were you doing there?

A very good friend of mine is an MEP and has invited myself and some mutual friends to go over and see the Parliament in action . It takes some believing to hear the translated crap that goes on. There is no real opposition to anything.
There is no greater distance between those in Brussels who shape the laws that will govern us, and us.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:24 am 
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Sciatico, you have totally failed to identify a single benefit of the UK being a member of a political EU that could or was not gained from that of a trading block.
You talk about adopting the Euro without mentioning at what exchange rate and what this might mean to inflation and jobs. You dismiss the workers in the City, because the shareholders might live abroad. You plainly know absolutely nothing about market share, growth and business sector dominance, here I suggest you google on Boston bubbles. From my observation I conclude that you are one of those fanatics that makes emotional decisions and then grubs for evidence to support your position. As the evidence here is meagre, you confuse the benefits of being a member of NATO and the EEC or even EFTA and seek to use these to support the undemocratic political QUANGO that is the EU. You are so blind that you accept, no doubt promote, that the end justifies the means and applaud the liars that will not allow a just referendum of the people on this tardy Constitution.
You are Sir, the bread and butter of a dictatorship, Hitler would have loved you!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:51 am 
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Sciatico wrote:
A load of Pro-Europe brainwash... :thumbdown:


You really are astonishingly naive if you believe even half the tripe you've written throughout this thread.

The EU is a project, based on lies and coercion, with the sole aim of creating a European superstate. Fact. Our leaders, starting with Heath, have lied to us consistantly since we were invited to join what was the EEC. Now the project employs so many corrupt, self serving, jumped up meglomaniac journeymen with so much to lose that they dare not let the gravy train come off the rails. It is a haven for failed socialist politicians from all over Europe who know if the public are asked to vote on these plans, they will be rejected; Hence Brown bottled giving us the vote. When votes can't be avoided, as the French, dutch and Irish have shown, the EU plans are rejected.

An organisation whose own Auditors refuse to sign off it's accounts for years in a row is not fit to determine how my tax money is spent. Most of these people are unfit for any sort of office and I do not acknowledge their supposed 'leadership'.

F**k them all. Three cheers to the Irish. And bring on a straightforward referendum for the UK; 'The EU; 'in' or 'out'.

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