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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:20 pm 
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Driver8 wrote:
Sciatico wrote:
A load of Pro-Europe brainwash... :thumbdown:


You really are astonishingly naive if you believe even half the tripe you've written throughout this thread.

I not only believe it, I'm living it.
I sell my products across Europe with little hassle (thanks to unified EU standards and no trade restrictions) Various EU customers come and collect in person directly from me and from other british firms. The only aggro comes from the stupid £-E conversions (so bank scum can skim a percentage from imports and exports which YOU seem so glad to hand them by keeping the stupid £) and laws for chasing bad debt are presently still different in some countries, hopefully that will change when such laws are harmonised.

I can get on a safe plane (dodgy airlines are prohibited from flying in all the EU) and am protected against delays and cancellations (anywhere in Europe, by EU law). I can jet off to my (very cheaply bought) Island farmhouse with year-round gardening climate, sea view and orange orchards on the next convenient flight, safe in the knowledge that I have a RIGHT to be there, to have free medical treatment and even collect a pension if I ever need it. I am also protected by numerous other basic EU rights, and so are YOU now within GB (like access to data kept on you, to pick one, and 2 year guarantees on products you buy or not to be detained without due and timely process, for others).





The EU is a project, based on lies and coercion, with the sole aim of creating a European superstate. Fact. Our leaders, starting with Heath, have lied to us consistantly since we were invited to join what was the EEC. Now the project employs so many corrupt, self serving, jumped up meglomaniac journeymen with so much to lose that they dare not let the gravy train come off the rails. It is a haven for failed socialist politicians from all over Europe

They were all elected by YOU, the public, to be there. That relatively small handful, odious though they are, have done and do a lot more to protect YOUR basic rights than any national government.

who know if the public are asked to vote on these plans, they will be rejected; Hence Brown bottled giving us the vote. When votes can't be avoided, as the French, dutch and Irish have shown, the EU plans are rejected.

I can quite see the problem of the overwhelming number of ministers form the main GB parties who all know the EU is the right way to go. It's like asking people off the street to certify the airworthiness of an airliner. Way beyond their ability because they don't know what each part and bolt of an airliner actually does, and are either too lazy or too thick to find out.


An organisation whose own Auditors refuse to sign off it's accounts for years in a row is not fit to determine how my tax money is spent. Most of these people are unfit for any sort of office and I do not acknowledge their supposed 'leadership'.

Yes, there should be more independent supervision of expenditure, and that includes your very own national government here in GB, as is blatantly obvious from the GOM pig-trough threads.


F**k them all. Three cheers to the Irish. And bring on a straightforward referendum for the UK; 'The EU; 'in' or 'out'.

IOW you want Mr. Murdoch and ilk and their drone herds of thick tabloid zombies to decide what's best for him and his chum$.



Last edited by Sciatico on Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:50 pm 
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oldrwb wrote:
Sciatico, you have totally failed to identify a single benefit of the UK being a member of a political EU that could or was not gained from that of a trading block.

Lets just nail this down: You are in favour of a Europe-wide trading block.

You talk about adopting the Euro without mentioning at what exchange rate and what this might mean to inflation and jobs.

What exchange rate would you find acceptable? Bear in mind that every individual and business who buys anything made in Europe or sells/travels to Europe would immediately save 4+% straight away from not needing to exchange bloody currency, or even think about it.

You dismiss the workers in the City, because the shareholders might live abroad.

Ah, so now it's poor City "workers" you are suddenly worried about.

You plainly know absolutely nothing about market share, growth and business sector dominance, here I suggest you google on Boston bubbles.

You mis-estimate the effect of the EU and a Euro on them ( and, more importantly, their ultimate effect on Mr. Average's happiness.) Anyway, the business sector are actually pushing FOR the EU and adoption of the Euro.


From my observation I conclude that you are one of those fanatics that makes emotional decisions and then grubs for evidence to support your position. As the evidence here is meagre, you confuse the benefits of being a member of NATO and the EEC or even EFTA and seek to use these to support the undemocratic political QUANGO that is the EU.

Not at all. The EU considers Joe Average as well as just trade. It's not a Quango either, you "emotive fanatic". Your refusal to cite your sources is more indicative that you are reading from a biased script than of any balanced opinion.

You are so blind that you accept, no doubt promote, that the end justifies the means and applaud the liars that will not allow a just referendum of the people on this tardy Constitution.
You are Sir, the bread and butter of a dictatorship, Hitler would have loved you!

Oh Dandy..., look up Godwin's law.

The bread and butter of dictatorship is when an elected government gives itself the right lock up citizens without access to legal representation and gives numerous of it's agencies the right to invade your house and your privacy by a vast range of means. The very dictatorial rights the EU charter would prevent them from imposing and your limp joke of an "unwritten constitution" doesn't.



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:05 pm 
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Sciatico, you're saying then that the EU treaty, which Gordon Brown wants bring in so badly he's prepared to cast aside election promises, would prevent him from taking the anti-terror measures he's just staked his career on. Even taking Brown's stupidity into account, I find that hard to believe.

Which New Labour curtailments of our civil liberties incidentally will the EU protect us from? ID cards? Our DNA being stored? Becoming the CCTV capital of the world? Proposed car tracking? Labour seem pretty confident they'll get away with all that and more.

While I have no love for our government, we can get rid of them a lot easier than the people running the EU. Do you not see the danger of putting so much trust in its supposed benevolence? Even if the EU really was the honest, democratic organisation you like to pretend it is, we only get to elect a small percentage of MEPs. The small bit of power that gives us over the people of Sweden and Hungary is in my opinion irrevelent. It doesn't justify giving the voters of two dozen other countries (each with their own interests, many of them competitors) the power to overrule us on how our country should be run.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Quote:
Sciatico wrote: The only aggro comes from the stupid £-€ conversions
Why haven't you got a €uro account for those deals?
:shock:
You could then trade with EU companies in their currency.

Both of my major investments in the UK have been in €uros since 2002.



NB: An offshore account is even better! :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:09 pm 
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Sciatico, you have totally failed to identify a single benefit of the UK being a member of a political EU that could or was not gained from that of a trading block.

Lets just nail this down: You are in favour of a Europe-wide trading block.

I am in favour of a world wide trading block with no tariffs or customs duty.

You talk about adopting the Euro without mentioning at what exchange rate and what this might mean to inflation and jobs.

What exchange rate would you find acceptable? Bear in mind that every individual and business who buys anything made in Europe or sells/travels to Europe would immediately save 4+% straight away from not needing to exchange bloody currency, or even think about it.

You answer the question as this is very important, get it wrong and you could see 15%+ unemployment and hyper-inflation.

You dismiss the workers in the City, because the shareholders might live abroad.

Ah, so now it's poor City "workers" you are suddenly worried about.

Don't be silly, it's the SE that subsides most of the rest of the UK.
My point is that we must not allow the political machinations of the EU to reduce the dominance of the UK in commercial markets. France and Germany in particular would like to take a big slice and use barriers to stop us getting into their insurance markets.


You plainly know absolutely nothing about market share, growth and business sector dominance, here I suggest you google on Boston bubbles.

You mis-estimate the effect of the EU and a Euro on them ( and, more importantly, their ultimate effect on Mr. Average's happiness.) Anyway, the business sector are actually pushing FOR the EU and adoption of the Euro.

Not true. You confuse big multinationals with British businesses. Clearly they are only interested in their clerical costs


From my observation I conclude that you are one of those fanatics that makes emotional decisions and then grubs for evidence to support your position. As the evidence here is meagre, you confuse the benefits of being a member of NATO and the EEC or even EFTA and seek to use these to support the undemocratic political QUANGO that is the EU.

Not at all. The EU considers Joe Average as well as just trade. It's not a Quango either, you "emotive fanatic". Your refusal to cite your sources is more indicative that you are reading from a biased script than of any balanced opinion.

Since when is a group of unelected political appointees not a QUANGO? You really do need a reality check.

You are so blind that you accept, no doubt promote, that the end justifies the means and applaud the liars that will not allow a just referendum of the people on this tardy Constitution.
You are Sir, the bread and butter of a dictatorship, Hitler would have loved you!

Oh Dandy..., look up Godwin's law.

You look it up and start answering questions, as thus far your points do not stand scrutiny.

The bread and butter of dictatorship is when an elected government gives itself the right lock up citizens without access to legal representation and gives numerous of it's agencies the right to invade your house and your privacy by a vast range of means. The very dictatorial rights the EU charter would prevent them from imposing and your limp joke of an "unwritten constitution" doesn't.

I am sure that oner can drive a legal baggage wagon through the diatribe that they laughingly call a Treaty, which is in reality a Constitution. It is so confusing that any politicized group could easily form a putsch and take over the EU as there are no balances and checks. It is all one way, from the citizens to the QUANGO. With people like you, mere fodder, you would vote for pie in the sky if it made you feel part of a big featherbedded nest.

I fail to see how your position could not be satisfied by a trade block such as EFTA as thus far you have not found one iota of evidence to justify the benefits of a political EU.

I am afraid you, like all the other EU-fanatics, have totally failed.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:50 pm 
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Officer Dibble wrote:
Sciatico, you're saying then that the EU treaty, which Gordon Brown wants bring in so badly he's prepared to cast aside election promises, would prevent him from taking the anti-terror measures he's just staked his career on. Even taking Brown's stupidity into account, I find that hard to believe.

I have no idea why he's doing it. Remember it's still only a proposal and has to go through the lords. And the EU treaty has just received a setback.
This lower part of this Times article tells more:
http://tinyurl.com/6ra2ta
"[Blair] caused Britain to be the only one of the members of the Council of Europe to derogate from the European Convention on Human Rights to allow indefinite detention without charge or trial of certain non-nationals. The courts struck that down.
In legal proceedings in England he wanted to be able to rely on evidence that may have been obtained by torture in legal proceedings in England. The courts struck that down too. After the July 7 bombings Mr Blair's Home Secretary boldly stated that the Government “would not be constrained by international conventions or by the way the judiciary interpreted them”.

So it's actually GB government which tries to dilute or blatantly ignore EU human rights legislation.



Which New Labour curtailments of our civil liberties incidentally will the EU protect us from? ID cards? Our DNA being stored? Becoming the CCTV capital of the world? Proposed car tracking? Labour seem pretty confident they'll get away with all that and more.

It looks like right now GB govt. still tries to stick their fingers up at both you and the EU human rights charter.
Ask your Euro MP, that's what they are for. The EU charter could become the ONLY recourse you can have against totalitarian regime.


While I have no love for our government, we can get rid of them a lot easier than the people running the EU. Do you not see the danger of putting so much trust in its supposed benevolence? Even if the EU really was the honest, democratic organisation you like to pretend it is, we only get to elect a small percentage of MEPs. The small bit of power that gives us over the people of Sweden and Hungary is in my opinion irrevelent. It doesn't justify giving the voters of two dozen other countries (each with their own interests, many of them competitors) the power to overrule us on how our country should be run.

If the EU ever becomes so negatively intrusive that the majority of a a country's people want to leave it, they can elect a government who takes them out of it. Simple.
Right now you only remain in it because *all* the major parties (and business) knows it's by far better on the whole to be part of it. It's not an election losing issue.

The fact that 27 elected neighbouring governments thrash out and pass the rules is precisely what stifles freshly voted-in "extremist" governments. So, while you might not care what is approved affecting Swedilslavia by the MEPs YOU elected, it could well be a major boon to Swedislavians, and it similarly applies to British people when 26 governments agree GB is taking liberties with British citizens.
Don't forget, you can always elect a government to take you out of it and have no recourse or restraints against your own new regime again, however bad they turn out to be.





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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:21 am 
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oldrwb wrote:
Sciatico, you have totally failed to identify a single benefit of the UK being a member of a political EU that could or was not gained from that of a trading block.

Lets just nail this down: You are in favour of a Europe-wide trading block.

- I am in favour of a world wide trading block with no tariffs or customs duty.[/color]
-
Now who's an idealist! Well the EU is the first feasible step towards a "world-wide" one. It could be that in future two ore more trade blocks like the EU join.

You talk about adopting the Euro without mentioning at what exchange rate and what this might mean to inflation and jobs.

What exchange rate would you find acceptable? Bear in mind that every individual and business who buys anything made in Europe or sells/travels to Europe would immediately save 4+% straight away from not needing to exchange bloody currency, or even think about it.

-You answer the question as this is very important, get it wrong and you could see 15%+ unemployment and hyper-inflation.

OK. I am not qualified to make an accurate recommendation that takes all factors outside my interest into account.
Personally I would be happy with the average exchange rate over the last 1 year period and the projected 6 months at any point in time. Your turn to state your favoured one:


You dismiss the workers in the City, because the shareholders might live abroad.

Ah, so now it's poor City "workers" you are suddenly worried about.

- Don't be silly, it's the SE that subsides most of the rest of the UK.
My point is that we must not allow the political machinations of the EU to reduce the dominance of the UK in commercial markets. France and Germany in particular would like to take a big slice and use barriers to stop us getting into their insurance markets.

I am certain the Stock Exchange have enough connections to/in government to make sure the necessary safeguards are implemented before a Euro adoption.

You plainly know absolutely nothing about market share, growth and business sector dominance, here I suggest you google on Boston bubbles.

You mis-estimate the effect of the EU and a Euro on them ( and, more importantly, their ultimate effect on Mr. Average's happiness.) Anyway, the business sector are actually pushing FOR the EU and adoption of the Euro.

- Not true. You confuse big multinationals with British businesses. Clearly they are only interested in their clerical costs.

I wonder how many more multinationals would flock to establish/consolidate their bases in/to London if it were proper part of an EU. As for british businesses who export/import, they are crying out for the Euro.

From my observation I conclude that you are one of those fanatics that makes emotional decisions and then grubs for evidence to support your position. As the evidence here is meagre, you confuse the benefits of being a member of NATO and the EEC or even EFTA and seek to use these to support the undemocratic political QUANGO that is the EU.

Not at all. The EU considers Joe Average as well as just trade . It's not a Quango either, you "emotive fanatic". Your refusal to cite your sources is more indicative that you are reading from a biased script than of any balanced opinion.

- Since when is a group of unelected political appointees not a QUANGO? You really do need a reality check.

And you are clearly unaware of the European commission's function. It can only propose legislation to the elected parliament, and the elected council, not impose it. http://europa.eu/institutions/inst/comm/index_en.htm


You are so blind that you accept, no doubt promote, that the end justifies the means and applaud the liars that will not allow a just referendum of the people on this tardy Constitution.
You are Sir, the bread and butter of a dictatorship, Hitler would have loved you!

Oh Dandy..., look up Godwin's law.

- You look it up and start answering questions, as thus far your points do not stand scrutiny.

(Godwin's law= likelihood of comparison to Hitler in an internet discussion. "Ad Hitlerum")
Of course my points stand scrutiny and are verifiable, I've done more than just answer your banal questions, and you re-repeating vacuous bullsh1t and emotively misusing terminology don't make your one-legged case.


The bread and butter of dictatorship is when an elected government gives itself the right lock up citizens without access to legal representation and gives numerous of it's agencies the right to invade your house and your privacy by a vast range of means. The very dictatorial rights the EU charter would prevent them from imposing and your limp joke of an "unwritten constitution" doesn't.

- I am sure that oner can drive a legal baggage wagon through the diatribe that they laughingly call a Treaty, which is in reality a Constitution.

Well they had to dilute it for the simpletons who voted against it in elections because they were too thick or lazy to find out how it would actually have helped them.

- It is so confusing that any politicized group could easily form a putsch and take over the EU as there are no balances and checks.

Utter bullshit again, you really are totally clueless about EU processes.

-It is all one way, from the citizens to the QUANGO. With people like you, mere fodder, you would vote for pie in the sky if it made you feel part of a big featherbedded nest.

Now you prove again how utterly ignorant you are. We are ALREADY taking advantage of what the EU has done, precisely because of the personal rights we now have here and all across the EU that we didn't have before, and so are you. All you've spouted so far is some blabber by someone about how they presume the poor City MIGHT be affected if ... . And you might get other ignorants to associate "(nasty) Quango" with "EU" if you repeat it often enough, but not anyone capable of reading and understanding what the EU actually does and how it achieves it:
http://europa.eu/pol/index_en.htm


- I fail to see how your position could not be satisfied by a trade block such as EFTA as thus far you have not found one iota of evidence to justify the benefits of a political EU.

Trade and social affairs are *linked* (for example consumer rights, or food safety). A trade block only facilitates trade, IE. export/import business, but coupled with social rights it does much more, by far. For example it enables a british pensioner to comfortably live in a warmer country with a lower cost of living and better healthcare on a british pension. Nothing to do with trade at all.

Given the mandate to enforce *basic* rights, it gives Joe Bloggs a recourse against national and even local government (privacy law, for one little example).


I am afraid you, like all the other EU-fanatics, have totally failed.

I'm afraid, like many you insist on remaining woefully ignorant of the sheer scale of what the EU is aiming for, does and has done, except for what the selected simplistic emotive crap a biased media spoonfeeds you.
Cure your ignorance and effing well find out (click links on left):
http://europa.eu/pol/educ/index_en.htm




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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:13 am 
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oldrwb wrote:
Sciatico, you have totally failed to identify a single benefit of the UK being a member of a political EU that could or was not gained from that of a trading block.

Lets just nail this down: You are in favour of a Europe-wide trading block.

- I am in favour of a world wide trading block with no tariffs or customs duty.[/color]
-
Now who's an idealist! Well the EU is the first feasible step towards a "world-wide" one. It could be that in future two ore more trade blocks like the EU join.

Have you heard of GATT?

You talk about adopting the Euro without mentioning at what exchange rate and what this might mean to inflation and jobs.

What exchange rate would you find acceptable? Bear in mind that every individual and business who buys anything made in Europe or sells/travels to Europe would immediately save 4+% straight away from not needing to exchange bloody currency, or even think about it.

-You answer the question as this is very important, get it wrong and you could see 15%+ unemployment and hyper-inflation.

OK. I am not qualified to make an accurate recommendation that takes all factors outside my interest into account.
Personally I would be happy with the average exchange rate over the last 1 year period and the projected 6 months at any point in time. Your turn to state your favoured one:

If you are not qualified to comment why do you recommend the adoption of the Euro? Surely even you should be able to recognise that today's exchange rate makes other EU countries goods and services expensive. What is it with you people that have no common sense or gumption?

You dismiss the workers in the City, because the shareholders might live abroad.

Ah, so now it's poor City "workers" you are suddenly worried about.

- Don't be silly, it's the SE that subsides most of the rest of the UK.
My point is that we must not allow the political machinations of the EU to reduce the dominance of the UK in commercial markets. France and Germany in particular would like to take a big slice and use barriers to stop us getting into their insurance markets.

I am certain the Stock Exchange have enough connections to/in government to make sure the necessary safeguards are implemented before a Euro adoption.

You jest? No doubt you remember the plight of British Fishermen.

You plainly know absolutely nothing about market share, growth and business sector dominance, here I suggest you google on Boston bubbles.

You mis-estimate the effect of the EU and a Euro on them ( and, more importantly, their ultimate effect on Mr. Average's happiness.) Anyway, the business sector are actually pushing FOR the EU and adoption of the Euro.

- Not true. You confuse big multinationals with British businesses. Clearly they are only interested in their clerical costs.

I wonder how many more multinationals would flock to establish/consolidate their bases in/to London if it were proper part of an EU. As for british businesses who export/import, they are crying out for the Euro.

This is very muddled thinking, large multinationals are currently leaving London for tax reasons, nothing to do with the Euro. It is EU policy to regulate taxation so that no member country can offer advantages.

From my observation I conclude that you are one of those fanatics that makes emotional decisions and then grubs for evidence to support your position. As the evidence here is meagre, you confuse the benefits of being a member of NATO and the EEC or even EFTA and seek to use these to support the undemocratic political QUANGO that is the EU.

Not at all. The EU considers Joe Average as well as just trade . It's not a Quango either, you "emotive fanatic". Your refusal to cite your sources is more indicative that you are reading from a biased script than of any balanced opinion.

- Since when is a group of unelected political appointees not a QUANGO? You really do need a reality check.

And you are clearly unaware of the European commission's function. It can only propose legislation to the elected parliament, and the elected council, not impose it. http://europa.eu/institutions/inst/comm/index_en.htm

I am clearly very well informed on the Commissions function and the nodding donkey behaviour of member governments, where such legislation is passed without scrutiny, but with embellishment. You Sir are the naive one if you believe this mountain of legislation does not force costs on our businesses.

You are so blind that you accept, no doubt promote, that the end justifies the means and applaud the liars that will not allow a just referendum of the people on this tardy Constitution.
You are Sir, the bread and butter of a dictatorship, Hitler would have loved you!

Oh Dandy..., look up Godwin's law.

- You look it up and start answering questions, as thus far your points do not stand scrutiny.

(Godwin's law= likelihood of comparison to Hitler in an internet discussion. "Ad Hitlerum")
Of course my points stand scrutiny and are verifiable, I've done more than just answer your banal questions, and you re-repeating vacuous bullsh1t and emotively misusing terminology don't make your one-legged case.

The bread and butter of dictatorship is when an elected government gives itself the right lock up citizens without access to legal representation and gives numerous of it's agencies the right to invade your house and your privacy by a vast range of means. The very dictatorial rights the EU charter would prevent them from imposing and your limp joke of an "unwritten constitution" doesn't.

- I am sure that oner can drive a legal baggage wagon through the diatribe that they laughingly call a Treaty, which is in reality a Constitution.

Well they had to dilute it for the simpletons who voted against it in elections because they were too thick or lazy to find out how it would actually have helped them.

You have clearly not attempted to read one paragraph of the gobbledegook. A Constitution should be no more than 20 pages of clear English that a layman can understand.

- It is so confusing that any politicized group could easily form a putsch and take over the EU as there are no balances and checks.

Utter bullshit again, you really are totally clueless about EU processes.

You clearly have not read History or this EU Constitution. You are Sir not an educated person.

-It is all one way, from the citizens to the QUANGO. With people like you, mere fodder, you would vote for pie in the sky if it made you feel part of a big featherbedded nest.

Now you prove again how utterly ignorant you are. We are ALREADY taking advantage of what the EU has done, precisely because of the personal rights we now have here and all across the EU that we didn't have before, and so are you. All you've spouted so far is some blabber by someone about how they presume the poor City MIGHT be affected if ... . And you might get other ignorants to associate "(nasty) Quango" with "EU" if you repeat it often enough, but not anyone capable of reading and understanding what the EU actually does and how it achieves it:
http://europa.eu/pol/index_en.htm

I am still waiting for you to cite a single advantage of being a member of a political EU that could not have been gained from a trade grouping such as EFTA. As for human rights, these were established in the 1950s and if I am correct by British legal minds.


- I fail to see how your position could not be satisfied by a trade block such as EFTA as thus far you have not found one iota of evidence to justify the benefits of a political EU.

Trade and social affairs are *linked* (for example consumer rights, or food safety). A trade block only facilitates trade, IE. export/import business, but coupled with social rights it does much more, by far. For example it enables a british pensioner to comfortably live in a warmer country with a lower cost of living and better healthcare on a british pension. Nothing to do with trade at all.

Given the mandate to enforce *basic* rights, it gives Joe Bloggs a recourse against national and even local government (privacy law, for one little example).

I am afraid you, like all the other EU-fanatics, have totally failed.

I'm afraid, like many you insist on remaining woefully ignorant of the sheer scale of what the EU is aiming for, does and has done, except for what the selected simplistic emotive crap a biased media spoonfeeds you.
Cure your ignorance and effing well find out (click links on left):
http://europa.eu/pol/educ/index_en.htm

I am not ignorant of what the EU project is, it is that that I do not wish to be part of it as I see no significant benefits to me or my family or the British people. I see a slide towards a dictatorship, a fortress Europe as it seeks to protect itself from competition and an inevitable reduction in the quality of life.

Just for your information, during the 1980s and 1990s I was CEO of companies in Germany, Italy, Switzerland and the UK and have a lot of experience of how business is done, in 1983 I even spent one year in Germany to learn the language. As for my lineage I am a mongrel of English, Welsh, Irish and Italian. Finally I have travelled extensively, particularly in Europe and am well read. On the contrary you Sir come across as someone who has been sold a pup and told that it is a gem and will believe this without question until the day you die.

Again, please cite one good reason why the UK should be a member of this political EU run by an undemocratic QUANGO?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:17 pm 
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oldrwb wrote:
. .Have you heard of GATT? . .


yes (actually GATT has now been superseded by the WTO). GATT/WTO are incredibly slow reactive and symptom driven mechanisms that only do anything when a seriously big member threatens to tear up previous agreements. The USA and much of Asia have got away with all sorts of trade abuses under the very noses of GATT.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:01 pm 
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Then beef up GATT.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:50 pm 
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-
Now who's an idealist! Well the EU is the first feasible step towards a "world-wide" one. It could be that in future two ore more trade blocks like the EU join.

- Have you heard of GATT?

What about it? It doesn't contain any social legislation and hence rewards those who abuse such.


What exchange rate would you find acceptable? Bear in mind that every individual and business who buys anything made in Europe or sells/travels to Europe would immediately save 4+% straight away from not needing to exchange bloody currency, or even think about it.

-You answer the question as this is very important, get it wrong and you could see 15%+ unemployment and hyper-inflation.

OK. I am not qualified to make an accurate recommendation that takes all factors outside my interest into account.
Personally I would be happy with the average exchange rate over the last 1 year period and the projected 6 months at any point in time. Your turn to state your favoured one:

You have not answered this ^^^ question.

-If you are not qualified to comment why do you recommend the adoption of the Euro?

I don't have the numerous factors in front of me to calculate the fairest exchange rate. That is for for the government and the EU to thrash out.

Surely even you should be able to recognise that today's exchange rate makes other EU countries goods and services expensive.

Which is why I would personally be happy with an average of said past and projected exchange rates. The £ cruising down the pan is GB mis-management's own fault.

What is it with you people that have no common sense or gumption?

What is it with you people who can only consider your own limited short-term interests?

I am certain the Stock Exchange have enough connections to/in government to make sure the necessary safeguards are implemented before a Euro adoption.

You jest? No doubt you remember the plight of British Fishermen.

Of course I remember. I also know that catches were going downhill anyway because of overfishing and woeful stock management by both GB and EU countries. The fleet was unsustainable and most fishermen were drawing social security.
The Stock exchange and City are a completely different kettle of fish and have way above adequate representation.




I wonder how many more multinationals would flock to establish/consolidate their bases in/to London if it were proper part of an EU. As for british businesses who export/import, they are crying out for the Euro.

This is very muddled thinking, large multinationals are currently leaving London for tax reasons, nothing to do with the Euro. It is EU policy to regulate taxation so that no member country can offer advantages.

Direct Taxation levels are left up to the member nations. It is only indirect taxation (like VAT) in relation to traded goods and their transport which it quite rightly tries to affect.



And you are clearly unaware of the European commission's function. It can only propose legislation to the elected parliament, and the elected council, not impose it. http://europa.eu/institutions/inst/comm/index_en.htm

I am clearly very well informed on the Commissions function and the nodding donkey behaviour of member governments, where such legislation is passed without scrutiny, but with embellishment. You Sir are the naive one if you believe this mountain of legislation does not force costs on our businesses.

By far the biggest cost imposed on my business is direct taxation and the cost of currency exchange.



You have clearly not attempted to read one paragraph of the gobbledegook. A Constitution should be no more than 20 pages of clear English that a layman can understand.

- It is so confusing that any politicized group could easily form a putsch and take over the EU as there are no balances and checks.

Utter bullshit again, you really are totally clueless about EU processes.

You clearly have not read History or this EU Constitution. You are Sir not an educated person.

LOL! And your outlook is narrow, pretentious, blinkered and retrogressive.

The only thing GB even has resembling a constitution is the obsolete gobbledigook of the Magna Carta of 1332. Read it for yourself:
http://www.britsattheirbest.com/freedom ... a_text.htm

Next to no Brit knows what the British *unwritten* (non-) constitution even is, never mind what it says or if government is contravening it.

*ANY* modern constitution is better and more relevant than the rumour of some "unwritten" one. It is precisely because GB DOESN'T HAVE A CONSTITUTION AT ALL that hundreds of "officials" can now enter YOUR home, and give YOU a "criminal" record on the most hairbrained of allegations.



-It is all one way, from the citizens to the QUANGO. With people like you, mere fodder, you would vote for pie in the sky if it made you feel part of a big featherbedded nest.

Now you prove again how utterly ignorant you are. We are ALREADY taking advantage of what the EU has done, precisely because of the personal rights we now have here and all across the EU that we didn't have before, and so are you. All you've spouted so far is some blabber by someone about how they presume the poor City MIGHT be affected if ... . And you might get other ignorants to associate "(nasty) Quango" with "EU" if you repeat it often enough, but not anyone capable of reading and understanding what the EU actually does and how it achieves it:
http://europa.eu/pol/index_en.htm

I am still waiting for you to cite a single advantage of being a member of a political EU that could not have been gained from a trade grouping such as EFTA. As for human rights, these were established in the 1950s and if I am correct by British legal minds.

I keep pointing some out to you over and over and over.
See below.



- I fail to see how your position could not be satisfied by a trade block such as EFTA as thus far you have not found one iota of evidence to justify the benefits of a political EU.

Trade and social affairs are *linked* (for example consumer rights, or food safety). A trade block only facilitates trade, IE. export/import business, but coupled with social rights it does much more, by far. For example it enables a british pensioner to comfortably live in a warmer country with a lower cost of living and better healthcare on a british pension. Nothing to do with trade at all.

You forgot to accept the fact that trade and social/human rights are linked. It's a huge factor affecting competitive advantage at the cost of the other.

Given the mandate to enforce *basic* rights, it gives Joe Bloggs a recourse against national and even local government (privacy law, for one little example).

I am afraid you, like all the other EU-fanatics, have totally failed.

I'm afraid, like many you insist on remaining woefully ignorant of the sheer scale of what the EU is aiming for, does and has done, except for what the selected simplistic emotive crap a biased media spoonfeeds you.
Cure your ignorance and effing well find out (click links on left):
http://europa.eu/pol/educ/index_en.htm

I am not ignorant of what the EU project is, it is that that I do not wish to be part of it as I see no significant benefits to me or my family or the British people.
I see a slide towards a dictatorship, a fortress Europe as it seeks to protect itself from competition and an inevitable reduction in the quality of life.

Dictatorship has already encroached on GB, and it stems from the British government itself not having a constitution and circumventing and undermining EU charters which would keep them in check, to the benefit of brits.
The present impending reduction of quality of life stems largely from "The City", the very financial institutions you are so eager to defend.



Just for your information, during the 1980s and 1990s I was CEO of companies in Germany, Italy, Switzerland and the UK and have a lot of experience of how business is done,

Lol! No wonder you are scared of measures that would prevent the moving of goalposts and circumvention of ethics. Your actual job was as the Goon maximising the profits of shareholders/owners at the expense of customers and staff. Last thing you want is people to have more rights.

in 1983 I even spent one year in Germany to learn the language.

Na toll (fuer einen Englaender), Du kannst sogar ein Paar Worte Deutsch sprechen...

As for my lineage I am a mongrel of English, Welsh, Irish and Italian.

E da dove veniva l'Italiano?

Finally I have travelled extensively, particularly in Europe and am well read.

Obviously only of English publications...

On the contrary you Sir come across as someone who has been sold a pup and told that it is a gem and will believe this without question until the day you die.


And this from someone who thinks the Welsh have a "Riviera".


Again, please cite one good reason why the UK should be a member of this political EU

Already have, and I am tired of listing reasons to someone so narrow as not to acknowledge the link between commerce and human rights.

run by an undemocratic QUANGO?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:22 pm 
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Posts: 815
Location: Northamptonshire
Saw this little snippet on Devils Kitchen, nice to know they think so highly of the people who elect them. Maybe if they published their verbiage in clear concise and unambiguous language we could make the informed choices but they do not seem to like that idea.

Quote:
MEPs: You're Too Stupid To Vote
Note: The author of this post is not The Devil's Kitchen

Via Ian Parker-Joseph, who spotted this in the New Europe journal (bolding mine):


Quote:
Referenda and Democracy

The EU has now accumulated significant (bad) experiences with
referenda. It was very delicately yet effectively communicated
by the Romanian social-democrat MEPs: “The referendum in
Ireland has demonstrated that direct democracy (by way of referendum) cannot ensure the progress of the European process.
The security, liberty and prosperity of hundreds of millions of
European citizens ask for complex leadership actions, which cannot be appreciated by heterogeneous populations, from the point of view of the information level and the education one.European integration is a process that must be conducted politically
by the elected representatives of the European citizens.”

In other words, we can't be doing such things as asking the people what they think of the 'European process', because they are too stupid to give the correct answer.

I've seen plenty of examples of the utter contempt of Eurocrats for democracy, but I reckon this tops the lot. This should be on every newspaper and news bulletin in Europe - with the headline This is what they think of you.

_________________
'Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Posts: 11206
Location: Mountain hideaway en España
Elvis wrote:
Quote:
Sciatico wrote: The only aggro comes from the stupid £-€ conversions
Why haven't you got a €uro account for those deals? :shock:
You could then trade with EU companies in their currency.

Both of my major investments in the UK have been in €uros since 2002.



NB: An offshore account is even better! :wink:
Did you miss this post, or did you simply decide it wasn't worth consideration?

_________________
Common sense, the most uncommon of all the senses.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:36 pm 
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Posts: 9459
Location: Gods Waiting Room
Sciatico wrote:
-
Na toll (fuer einen Englaender), Du kannst sogar ein Paar Worte Deutsch sprechen...




Moment mal, du bist nicht der einziger hier der Deutsch sprecht. Du bist auch nicht der einziger der in Ausland gelbt hatte. Alle meine kinder waren in Deutschland geboren und troztdem sag ich NEIN zum diesen verdammten EU projekt.

Alles Klar?

_________________
the difference between a welfare state and a totalitarian state is a matter of time.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:05 pm 
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Posts: 2478
Location: GB/Azores
Old Holborn wrote:
Sciatico wrote:
-
Na toll (fuer einen Englaender), Du kannst sogar ein Paar Worte Deutsch sprechen...




Moment mal, du bist nicht der einziger hier der Deutsch sprecht. Du bist auch nicht der einziger der in Ausland gelbt hatte. Alle meine kinder waren in Deutschland geboren und troztdem sag ich NEIN zum diesen verdammten EU projekt.

Alles Klar?


Na und? Du sagst zu allem "nein", auch wenn es nicht Auslaendisch ist. In der Zwischenzeit machst Du dein Brot und Butter mit Austauschstudenten, fast sicherlich Dank EU Projekten.


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