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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:05 am 
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This is fantastic news - we all seem to be opting for new diesels and no amount of adverts or anything the BBC say will change our minds - because we don't watch either anymore.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:35 am 
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bargepole wrote:
The general public are just not as exercised about environmental issues as some politicians think we should be.


The government is supposed to lead the way forward, not follow the herd.

bargepole wrote:
The phasing out of petrol or diesel cars by 2030 is a pipe dream that will never happen. 2050 is more realistic.


Unless of course there is a fuel crisis before 2050, which is looking more & more likely as the enormous Chinese market gets more thirsty for the stuff year by year. Better to have a government that at least provides a kick up the backside to move people in this direction, than to suddenly discover that we are up the creek & hadn't done enough about it while we had time. I would rather aim for 2030 & fail than put it on the back burner, thinking it is a problem for the next generation so we can just carry on as before.

The Conservative green agenda is of course just half an agenda. I won't believe they are serious about any of it until the spineless cowards stand up to the biggest waster of natural resources there has ever been - mass air travel.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:09 pm 
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Everywhere I look, forums, newspapers etc all I see is misinformation and speculation about EV's.
The fact is they are improving rapidly along with battery technology. In ten years time they may well be cheaper to buy than 'normal' cars. Think about it- no complex engine with its attendant exhaust emission claptrap, no gearbox and clutch (EVs don't need them). The suspension, steering and braking systems have been mass produced and little changed since Noah built boats for a hobby :mrgreen:

On board electronics are cheap as chips- even the cheapest cars nowadays have a touchscreen and toys.
Battery packs? When they get to about 70% of their new capacity they are no use for traction but highly valuable for storage. They are not scrapped as some think but refurbished/packaged for off peak power storage, and for those with solar panels who use these batteries for storing unused generated electricity. These battery packs can usually be returned back to vehicle use by replacing defective cells as and when. I used to own a 2015 Nissan Leaf EV. With a OBD connector (a bluetooth one) I could use a free to download service app which could interrogate the battery pack and physically point out any underperforming cells. A simple job to fix if you know how to get into it.

Charging? Okay, there is a problem with home charging for flat dwellers. But ways are being sought to get around this, one being to provide every streetlamp with a charging socket. Yes yes- I know the drawbacks but time is on our side. On the go is a bit shaky but getting better and more units being installed daily. But, buy a Tesla and you don't need to worry. Their dedicated charging infrastructure already covers the UK and most of Europe.

Generating capacity? I read an interesting article a few days ago. It would seem that we are capable of producing more electricity than we currently use. Domestic use is falling constantly due to more efficient appliances and better insulation (for example all the lighting in my house is LED probably no more than 200w in total) TV's use less power and so on) The reduction also translates to more efficient business and manufacturing use. The problem we have is that many power stations lie idle and if there should be a big and sustained (as with EV's being recharged) increase in demand we could meet it in theory but the power stations would quickly break down due to lack of maintenance. So yes, we need more and better power stations. This is well known and no doubt we'll start to see improvements.

Range? Well my Leaf would struggle to do more than 90 miles in one go. Now the new breed are starting to hit the 300+ mile mark. How many miles do you want to drive in one go? The average weekly mileage for the UK is around 130 miles! At the moment that's me for a month...

To finish- don't take heed of the sensationalised rubbish you read or see. Speak to people who have real experience (and I don't include me in that sector) Personally, well before 2030 I will be driving an EV, (hopefully a Tesla) which I was intending to do anyway because I love them! And with that I do speak with experience. They bewitch you.

Don't believe me? (and I know you don't) Go and blag a test drive, then come back here and report :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:55 pm 
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Until they create an electric vehicle that can get me from the South of England to Glasgow where I regularly visit (well, used to regularly visit) my cousins, without me having to spend half the day sat in some overpriced roadside motorway cafe waiting to 'fill up', then I will stick with my reliable old diesel Passat which can actually get me there and almost back again on just one charge.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:52 pm 
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We will end up in a situation as described earlier - we'll be taken back to the 1960's where the masses will be limited to restrictive public transport whilst the elite will be the only ones truly allowed to travel around as they wish. That's what it'll end up being but even then, the green dictators won't think this is 'enough' to save the planet. Nothing ever is. More restrictions. More tax. That's basically all they want.

Again, I acknowledge we need to move away from fossil fuel. I don't think any level-headed person will say otherwise. However, with enough to still last a couple of generations, I don't understand why there's a sudden urgent rush to move away without fully developing and refining renewable technology first. Again, it simply boils down to more restrictions and taxes on people. All stick to move to renewables, but without any carrot at the end of the stick for doing so. The negatives still very much outweigh the benefits in my opinion and I can't see that changing any time soon.

After twelve years of diesel cars, I opted for a hybrid for the new Depressedmobile back in March. Not to virtue signal. It was simply down to cheaper VED and the fact that it's cheaper to fuel. Economy is broadly the same (slightly better pottering around town, slightly worse on distance runs - although it's not had many to give it a fairer comparison yet). Environmental issues are of little concern to me. My wallet and maintaining my lifestyle does. Something which we all seem to be getting punished for these days.

For me to make the switch to electric, it would have to manage at least 300 miles on a charge. That would be in poorer winter weather where it's already common knowledge batteries are giving poorer ranges than they would in warmer months. The performance isn't an issue for me. As long as it's around the eight or nine second mark to 60mph, I'll be happy. It's quick enough for me. In terms of charging times, it would need to be broadly similar to filling up an existing petrol/diesel car from empty. I'd probably 'grin and bear' a charging time of 20/30 minutes if there was something on or close to the fuel station site to occupy me. Obviously if I was at home or a hotel somewhere - this wouldn't be an issue. It also needs to be practical (so back doors and a decent boot are essential) and the price needs to be on-par with equivalent internal combustion engines today. Not £5000/£10,000 plus on top of the existing petrol/diesel model.

What I think pro-electric vehicle people don't quite understand is that not everyone just uses their car to potter around town and commute to work. I also use mine for weekends away and holidays. Not everyone's furthest journey is to the nearest airport... In the past, I've comfortably racked up 1200 miles in the space of five/seven days.

I think when battery technology is finally up to speed with most people's needs, hydrogen technology will be right on it's tail - eventually proving to be more practical going forward.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:25 pm 
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I live way out in the sticks. Junior goes to school half an hour away, and then if I go to the office that is 40 mins in another direction, so on a double school run & office day I do 90 miles. We regularly go up to the Highlands, more than 350 miles from here.

Also bear in mind the differences between Islington, which is where all the decision makers seem to live in their little bubble, and life elsewhere. I run a Mitsubishi L200 truck because it can stay in 4wd on tarmac or icy mud, and Her Ladyship has the Range Rover. Both are absolutely hammered by mud, and get through brakes, wearable bushes, and all the other stuff that gets a hard time on country roads at an astonishing rate. No electric vehicle that I know of would last even a year in such conditions.

There is a long way to go before it becomes workable, but I can see the logic in increasing pressure to make it happen. I just hope the idiots in Islington can consider the whole country before declaring that electric vehicles will be imposed on everyone, including those in high density areas of the cities who find it hard enough to park never mind charge at the same time, and people in the sticks who have to drive long distances on poor quality & dirty roads, possibly carrying half a ton or more of something agricultural.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:55 pm 
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How many charge points will be needed for visitors to Swowdonia, The Lake District of the Yorkshire Sales and Moors?
How many Wind Turbines or solar panel farms will be needed to supply them?
How long before the Greens have a rethink ?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:46 pm 
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In a couple of years, the present Mrs Bargepole will be retiring from work, and I already run my business from home anyway. So we're thinking we can probably manage with one car, and should sell my Jag and her Fiat 500, to get a medium-sized hybrid or electric vehicle.

But the more the Green Nazis try to foist their agenda on us, the more I'm disliking that idea.

So I'm leaning more towards getting a gas-guzzling big old luxury banger, of which you can pick up a decent example for £2-3,000 - something like an Audi A8, Lexus GS or Merc S-Class, just to stick up two fingers to the holier-than-thou brigade.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:33 pm 
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Monkey1 wrote:
Travel for the masses has never been sustainable in the long term, but decades of political insanity have resulted in a country where people no longer live near where they work, their children go to schools nowhere near where they live, and local shops have all but gone. Now everybody needs easy mass transport to do just about anything, and when it is taken away, there will be massive problems. There have been warnings out there for decades that fossil fuels are of limited supply, and now billions more people want to get their hands on the same fuel, to enjoy mass travel like we do.

It is all going to end badly, quite possibly in wars when demand for oil outstrips supply, and all so utterly and sadly predictable.

But never mind, we can pretend it isn't happening, so let's just carry on as we are shall we!


Wot the man sed .

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:24 pm 
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The formula is depressingly predictable ;

- Less freedom,
- More tax,
- repeat (for any excuse).

Change is inevitable as patterns of resource and technology change, it's that way that our leaders choose to infantilise us along the way that's so annoying.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:47 pm 
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If we are still on the Tories supposedly "Green" agenda could someone tell me why we are wedded to giant wind turbines? SF6 (sulphur hexafluoride) has been identified by the intergovernmental panel on climate change as being THE most potent green house gas (23,900 times that of Co2 over 100 years) yet it is still being used extensively as an electrical insulator. The massive expansion of switchgear relating to wind turbine power (and the inevitable fires) releases serious amounts of SF6 into the environment,

Green agenda? what utter billhooks.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:47 am 
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Scotland is certainly one place where you can rack up the miles quickly. I recall a touring holiday up there in 2000. We were up there six days and based at Loch Lomond whilst we traveled around. 1500 miles we covered... I had a regular, naturally aspirated petrol back in those days too, which went through the juice. Whilst I think it's going to be an incredibly difficult deadline to meet in the majority of places anyway, I'll eat my own shoes if the likes of Scotland, vast chunks of Wales, the Pennines e.t.c will be set-up in 20 years time, never mind ten.

The only way we'll end up with the sort of renewable energy required to run the country will be to effectively litter the majority of beauty spots with wind farms. I can't see that happening. Whilst that’s been the cases in some specific places already, I really can't see the general public wanting to live in a country where they won't be able to go anywhere without seeing a windmill churning away. This is even before we get to the issue with wildlife.

Whilst I have the space for a second car and even a third, I can just about to afford to run the one - so the idea of having an electric car for commuting or pottering around locally, with a regular car for everything else is not financially possible. I can only have one or the other and if it has to be electric - we need larger ranges, quicker recharging times and considerably cheaper price tags. The three biggest obstacles which always remain in place.

Going down this "green" route is only going to see rates of depression and suicide skyrocket during this decade and especially next. I fear only at this point, when it's too late to stop this madness, will some of it's strongest campaigners today will realize the issues the likes of you and me have been saying several years earlier.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:39 pm 
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Mr. D.,

Having lived in Scotland since 1984, I can only say that your comments are, as ever, archly well observed - compared to England, which is a Compact, well thought out Country, Scotland is an oversized, totally inappropriately scaled province.

For example, we live in Aberdeenshire, (a relatively civilised part of the Realm of Mordor), but it's still about three hours and forty five minutes to the Border, and that's with full ECM engaged, and working the horses hard.

I have seen speculation in the media recently along the lines of "Why is Scotland favoured for Space launches" - that's simply because no-one gives a f**k if they take Dundee out, when trying to "pop one up" into Polar Orbit.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:37 pm 
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Tony.T wrote:
Everywhere I look, forums, newspapers etc all I see is misinformation and speculation about EV's.
The fact is they are improving rapidly along with battery technology.

There is also a lot of articles stating we are much nearer getting better battery tech, that is years away. The half knackered battery for storage myth seems to be pushed by the green eco firms, from what I hear from the engineers I know, the used batteries cost more to reuse and make safe than to build from scratch. We have a very long way to go before we can replace the internal combustion engine. I think this is more bull from Boris, at best it is only a plan. I had a very expensive top end all electric car, on test for two weeks for a car magazine I wrote for. The car was rather good until you wanted to go any distance. Only one place between here and London to charge it unless I went the longer M4/M5 route. It was fully charged when I left here, I topped it up at Exeter had to stop for 80 minutes. drove on to Fleet services, all of the charging points were in use, got plugged in an hour later, had to charge for nearly 3 hours. Drove on to Islington had to use the slow charge lead, no charge point at my house. On charge all night, battery 87% range 190 miles my forward journey home is 285 miles the trip normally takes about 5 hours. it took 10 hours going and 9 coming back.
I will not be rushing out to buy an electric car, I'll be 80 in another 10 years so my driving days might be over before the green agenda madness ruins everyone's private transport.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:21 pm 
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One thing I'll always remember following on from my several touring holidays around Scotland are the large distances involved getting from one place to another. Especially once you get above Edinburgh and Glasgow. Petrol stations are also well spaced out, so how they plan on installing charging points out in the wilderness is anyone's guess. I remember stopping off at a few petrol stations just to 'top up' as I was unsure where the next one would be. Given poorer ranges of electric vehicles, I'd imagine the 'range anxiety' will probably outweigh any benefits of travelling in such areas. Again, maybe that's the whole purpose. Stop people travelling around at will and enjoying themselves.

Agreed Jethro, distance journeys are going to be much more troublesome. Brother Depressed is 240 miles away. Depending on toilet stops, I can do this journey in around five/six hours. Other family I have are in excess of 170 miles. This can be done in around three and a half/four hours with a quick pit stop. The latter is one I've had to do a return journey on the same day several times in recent years. With an electric car, this wouldn't be possible as things stand. I could probably just about get there, but then face a lengthy recharge time. The 240 mile journey would probably involve an additional stop somewhere along the way to at least 'top up'. I can imagine it'll probably take another hour or two. We'll be back to the days of the horse and carriage with inns every 20 miles or so.

The current Depressedmobile is an eight month old hybrid, so at low speeds or light throttle, it mainly runs on electric. It does have an 'EV' mode which, according to the handbook will give me a few miles of all-electric power. I've never used it though. As far as I'm concerned, a hybrid is probably the best step forwards for the time being. You're getting the benefits of both electric and petrol without the pitfalls of minimal ranges or taking hours to 'refill'. As things stand, I'm happy sticking with that level of technology. I still feel hydrogen power will trump battery power. I only hope it comes sooner rather than later. Even from a refilling perspective, it's far superior.

One common argument I'm hearing more of at the moment is that electric cars are becoming cheaper. What those people fail to mention is that the cheapest electric cars available are little city cars and superminis. They're still £20k plus. Virtually double the price I'd be willing to pay if I was in the market for one. Where are the family-sized electric cars at or around that price? They don't currently exist. Some are pointing at the Volkswagen ID. These are comfortably over £30k – and unless it was a top of the range, all-singing-all-dancing model, who'd willingly want to pay that for a small hatchback? We're going to end up in a position where no one will be owning their own car any more – which again, the more cynical side of me says this is one of the plots behind the whole 'green business' in the first place. Everything eventually being owned by the state – which is a far-left ideology, not in any way a true Conservative one.

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