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"I don't believe it !" - Victor M.
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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:42 pm 
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Eyeore wrote:
Come on Lucy answer the question.



hahahahaha that's rich coming from you.

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Eyeore wrote:
In fact you've not even felt able to fully face up to where the non-existence of God might logically lead.


Er, that would be quite impressive, given that it's known as 'reality' and we're all actually living it, right now (and always have been/always will be).

You are incorrect about my position. If God were to prove to me that he exists, great, I'd be happy to accept he exists. If he is what those who 'know' him claim, he would be able to quite easily provide absolute proof to me. I think you may be getting confused with what my subsequent course of action would be.

However, it does not work the other (ie, your) way round. It is impossible for you to ever accept 'proof' that God does not exist because the only 'incontrovertible proof' you would accept would have to come from God himself. This is the entire, fundamental problem I have been referring to in your case. It is the classic religious/faith position, set-up such that it's impossible to ever happen. Only God can prove that God doesn't exist. Therefore, the truth of the matter, whatever you may claim in order to assist your argument, is that you will never, ever accept than God does not exist. Indeed, you cannot once you have the level of faith that you do.

Eyeore wrote:
Why is my particular configuration of electro-chemical brain impulses causing your configuration to simulate a desire in you to attempt to stimulate my impulses to change their configuration..............or visa versa? :lol:


Again, you miss a rather fundamental point. I do not care what you believe. In fact, your choice of belief suits me very well and in many ways.

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:03 pm 
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:roll:

What I have written I have written,
What you have read, you have read

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:06 pm 
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Eyeore wrote:
:roll:

What I have written I have written,
What you have read, you have read


Well, yes, there's no denying that.

The fact you won't deny it says everything. Be honest, how do you think anyone/anything other than God himself could provide you with 'incontrovertible proof' that God doesn't exist?

It's impossible.

No matter what was said or done, you would always stick to the notion that 'Only God can prove it'. That's the whole point...

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:32 pm 
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:roll: Why are you fixated with the notion that I'm demanding proof; I'm not

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Eyeore wrote:
:roll: Why are you fixated with the notion that I'm demanding proof; I'm not


No, I realise you have absolutely no need for proof of existence.

What I am saying is that it's also impossible, for you, for their to be proof of non-existence.

This is the intrinsic part of religion that makes it so 'clever' to those who believe it in but, at the same time, so suspicious for those who do not.

Now you have your belief, which is not based on proof, it's impossible for anything to disprove it.

What I am trying to point out to you is that, no matter how many times you might pretend (or even convince yourself) otherwise, it's impossible for you to consider anything from any other starting point than 'God exists' - because it's now impossible for you to believe otherwise. There cannot even be any proof that he doesn't.

On the other hand, I am more than happy to accept that God might exist... and it would be perfectly possible, simple, in fact, for proof to be forthcoming if it were true.

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:28 pm 
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Your problem with what I believe, is just that, your problem.

At the end of the day probably one or neither of us will find out we are wrong.
I shall leave it at that for now, so you can go rattle that other cage.

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:59 pm 
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Eyeore wrote:
Your problem with what I believe, is just that, your problem.


Why the endless need for somebody to be a victim? I'd only just told you that I really couldn't care less what you believe. It is a shame you're so obtuse about answering questions it's obvious you'd rather not answer but, hey, you're religious, it's to be expected.

Eyeore wrote:
At the end of the day probably one or neither of us will find out we are wrong.


Of course neither of us will, that's the whole point about the concept you believe in.

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:59 am 
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crutch wrote:
Can't remember the last time I went to a church service. Very few of my friends believe in God. I am almost embarrassed to say that I now, reluctantly regard myself as an atheist.

I feel very uncomfortable with this, as I belong to an organisation that insists that a belief in God is essential to membership. Although when I joined I wholeheartedly did.


Hi Crutch. I'm interested, if you don't mind me getting back to the original post, but if you didn't belong to this organisation, would you still feel uncomfortable with your newly-found atheism?

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:39 am 
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Thanks Mistertfool

Hymns and Prayers are sang and recited several times during the meetings, The Holy Bible is also an essential part of the proceedings. This could just as easily be the Koran or any other sacred writings held in highest regard by any of the members.

Some characters from the Bible are referred to, and situations often acted out. Weather any events recorded in the Bible actually took place or not, I suppose, is not important. what matters are the moral lessons that can gained by the participants.

All the meetings are well managed, and all who participate can be proud of what they hope to convey to those progressing in the fraternity.

Its just saddens me that when I am in private prayer, there is no 'creator' listening :(

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:07 pm 
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crutch wrote:
Its just saddens me that when I am in private prayer, there is no 'creator' listening :(

but if there were always answers, it wouldn't take an act of faith to believe. Even a raving agnostic would get the message if they started doubting the existence of god, then got belted with a godly 2 by 4 and had "of course I am here" bellowed into their ear.
And as I get older, the question does come back. Those religious right fundamentalists and their clap tram can't be the meaning of life can they? Although there were many times at work that I would have gladly traded mp PC for an Amish horse and wagon lifestyle.


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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:04 pm 
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richardfromthecounty wrote:
but if there were always answers, it wouldn't take an act of faith to believe. Even a raving agnostic would get the message if they started doubting the existence of god, then got belted with a godly 2 by 4 and had "of course I am here" bellowed into their ear..


Richard, could you possibly do me a favour and PM that piece of succinct, blindingly obvious common sense to Luce & vocal?

I think it's the bit they don't get.


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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:34 pm 
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crutch wrote:
Its just saddens me that when I am in private prayer, there is no 'creator' listening :(


Does you private prayer consist of a multi-million lottery win, an impossibly large breasted 18 year old nymphomaniac amazonian au pair turning up on your doorstep offering free house duties or free fuel and no taxes for life?

My private prayer does and I am having the same problem as you. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 6:51 pm 
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Greyhair wrote:
richardfromthecounty wrote:
but if there were always answers, it wouldn't take an act of faith to believe. Even a raving agnostic would get the message if they started doubting the existence of god, then got belted with a godly 2 by 4 and had "of course I am here" bellowed into their ear..


Richard, could you possibly do me a favour and PM that piece of succinct, blindingly obvious common sense to Luce & vocal?

I think it's the bit they don't get.


Oh, I get it. It's another part of the classic religious argument.

"If God proved he existed there'd be no point to him existing"

I've heard all the well rehearsed lines about why something that doesn't exist won't prove it exists.

This one is interesting, though. It's a bit like people who travel all round the world to see bands, in an attempt to demonstrate how they're the 'number one fan'. I often think very religious people are similar... "Oh, my faith is so absolute and deep that I'd die for my God".

Well, you're going to die anyway, for starters, but I do sometimes wonder is some of these people actually have much real belief at all. It just seems to be about showing how much faith they have. Anyone can do it. In fact, I've even heard a lovely little theory that goes along the lines of, "It may not seem to you as though I have faith, but my version of faith is actually even stronger than yours".

How can anyone prove their faith is stronger? It's a delicious way of using a religious style arguement against the religious.

Maybe I actually have more faith than Eeyore.

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 Post subject: Re: Ive lost my faith
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Greyhair wrote:
richardfromthecounty wrote:
but if there were always answers, it wouldn't take an act of faith to believe. Even a raving agnostic would get the message if they started doubting the existence of god, then got belted with a godly 2 by 4 and had "of course I am here" bellowed into their ear..


Richard, could you possibly do me a favour and PM that piece of succinct, blindingly obvious common sense to Luce & vocal?

I think it's the bit they don't get.


lulz.

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