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 Post subject: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:11 pm 
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It sucks, but it is what it is. It is almost certain that the Diplomat and his wife were ordered to return to the USA by the State Department and there is very little the FCO can do about it. We are not going to break off relations with the USA, close our Embassy in Washington, or expel the Ambassador.

Perhaps one way would be for the parents to take legal action in the USA, but the outcome is likely to be uncertain. All they can hope for imo is that the driver's insurance company pays generous compensation.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:29 pm 
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Quote:
diplomat
noun
1. a person appointed by a national government to conduct official negotiations and maintain political, economic, and social relations with another country or countries.
2. a person who is tactful and skillful in managing delicate situations, handling people, etc.

Regardless of the protected status of the diplomat and, by extension his family, the callousness shown towards the family of the dead boy and the cowardice displayed by the diplomat's wife is beneath contempt. As the diplomat concerned is clearly not up to the requirements of the second part of the definition, at the very least he and his family should be replaced.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:27 pm 
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the cowardice displayed by the diplomat's wife is beneath contempt. As the diplomat concerned is clearly not up to the requirements of the second part of the definition,

Neither the Diplomat nor his wife has any say in the matter. The USA has a policy, and is sticking to it.
I suspect that HMG would make a similar decision it this had happened to a British Diplomat in Butthole Texas.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:43 pm 
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D P Dance wrote:
the cowardice displayed by the diplomat's wife is beneath contempt. As the diplomat concerned is clearly not up to the requirements of the second part of the definition,

Neither the Diplomat nor his wife has any say in the matter. The USA has a policy, and is sticking to it.
I suspect that HMG would make a similar decision it this had happened to a British Diplomat in Butthole Texas.

Trying to sugar coat this with such a feeble hypothesis is a desperate attempt to excuse appalling behaviour.

This HAS happened to this particular person and a family is suffering because of her actions. She is now back in the USA and is no longer hindered by the diplomatic label so if she is not a coward she should do the decent, honourable thing and return to the UK as a private citizen.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:21 pm 
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Trying to sugar coat this with such a feeble hypothesis is a desperate attempt to excuse appalling behaviour.

I am merely telling it as it is. I was in the Diplomatic Service for 33 years, including three years in the USA. I do know what I am talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:33 pm 
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D P Dance wrote:
I am merely telling it as it is. I was in the Diplomatic Service for 33 years, including three years in the USA. I do know what I am talking about.

Irrelevant.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:30 pm 
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This practice should have been stopped years ago. I remember back in the 80s a so called diplomat wrote off three parked cars, we breath tested him. He was 2.5 times over the limit, he was arrested.
Back at the station, he was allowed one phone call, he was out without charge twenty minutes later.
Scum of the Earth who abuse the system. This woman should face justice. Being a diplomats wife is totally irrelevant, by her own actions, she killed someone.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:50 pm 
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I was in the Diplomatic Service for 33 years, including three years in the USA. I do know what I am talking about.


Make your mind up ,Dipps, it is one or the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:09 am 
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This practice should have been stopped years ago.

It is an international Treaty, signed by over 200 countries. they cannot just be "stopped".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity

It is ill-considered and-ill informed comments such as those expressed on this board which is why is necessary. It can be abused by Diplomats, but it also can be abused by Nation States. Its purpose is to protect Diplomats from rogue states.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:40 pm 
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D P Dance wrote:
This practice should have been stopped years ago.

It is an international Treaty, signed by over 200 countries. they cannot just be "stopped".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is ill-considered and-ill informed comments such as those expressed on this board which is why is necessary. It can be abused by Diplomats, but it also can be abused by Nation States. Its purpose is to protect Diplomats from rogue states.

I know what it is Dippers, we are not all as ill informed as you like to think.
It is abused by those that have it, on a daily basis, this case just brings it into public view.

International treaty or not, it needs to be amended to stop misuse by lowlife diplomats and their spouses who think they should be above the law.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:40 pm 
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It is abused by those that have it, on a daily basis, this case just brings it into public view.

I agree that it is constantly abused, you would not believe how many members of the Saudi Royal Family, (on Diplomatic passports), are caught shoplifting in Harrods each year, and AFAIAA, the US Embassy staff have not paid millions in Congestion Charges, nut that falls under Diplomatic Privileges.

I even have personal experience of it. I was involved in an RTA in Dar es Salaam. The other driver immediately claimed diplomatic Immunity. I asked to see his ID. He turned out to be a clerk in the accounts department of the Egyptian Embassy. The smile was wiped off his face when I showed him my ID, I considerably outranked him.

The fact remains that this lady would have had no opportunity to defend herself in court, she would have been ordered home by Washington. You may well be familiar with the Vienna Convention, but I doubt that Boundah is. I can assure you that DI is necessary in order that Diplomats can carry out their duties.

IMO there was no abuse of DI in this case, The US Government was merely protecting one of its Diplomats from lesser nations' Law

I worked in Protocol in the 60s. I cannot remember a case of DI being abused by one of our chaps.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:21 pm 
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The very fact that it is constantly abused, is reason enough to reframe the criteria of its scope.
There is no reason why any spouse or employee should have immunity from the law. Senior diplomats should be the only embassy staff to have DI status. I do not buy the "that this lady would have had no opportunity to defend herself in court" Strings were pulled to prevent her facing a possible manslaughter charge, she is not a diplomat needing protection, she should have never been put above the law by her husbands status. In my 23 years of police service, I saw the DI card pulled by anyone who could get away with it. This law is outdated, it came into being in 1709 and had changed very little until 1961 under the Vienna Convention foreign ambassadors were included. Since then it has been used as a get out of jail free card by just about every member of Embassy staff working in the UK. A law change is long overdue.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:07 pm 
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There is no reason ...

There are countless reasons, here is one.

In 1966, at the height of Ian Smith's unlawful declaration of independence in Southern Rhodesia, I was working as a cypher officer in the British Consulate General in Lourenco Marques. I was instructed to go down to the docks to look for railway wagons carrying Rhodesian asbestos, contrary to UN sanctions . I was a very inept spy, and got myself arrested at gunpoint.

As it happened we did not need to claim DI as, to do so, would have embarrassed the Portuguese Government, and exposed them as sanctions busters. However, had there been no DI it could have been very nasty for me. As I said in my OP, it sucks, but it is enshrined in International Law. Surely you as a former police officer can understand that.

AFAIAA, she is most certainly entitled to DI, read the Convention, Article 29.

http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instrumen ... 1_1961.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:56 pm 
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I am not disputing she is entitled to it, I am saying there is no reason why she should need it. It is the abuse of DI that I'm not agreeing with. The law needs changing to prevent misuse, not to endanger someone with a genuine need for DI. She has no valid reason to be able to claim DI, the fact she can is down to years of abuse, and badly written out of date law that does not work fairly in the 21st century. Time to change the rules Dippers. It is madness sticking up for this criminal use of DI to evade the law.

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 Post subject: Re: Diplomatic Immunity
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:46 pm 
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I am saying there is no reason why she should need it. It is the abuse of DI ...

Whether she needs it or not, her Government has decided that she must have it. It is not her call, it is the policy of the GUSA. There is no abuse unless the ICJ says there is. Can we agree to disagree?

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